How to Contribute Effectively Without Overstepping - Wisdom for 21st C Governance

A People Talking interview with governance pro and former board chair Michele Levy

Jan 24, 2025

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Sometimes you’re at the wheel and sometimes you’re pushing from behind

Photo by Aubrey Odom on Unsplash

I am delighted to publish this People Talking interview with my friend and colleague Michele Levy. Michele did the first People Talking interview back in 2023 and this time around, we delve into 21st century governance. Michele has governance experience from a number of angles - as a senior leader in independent schools, as a consultant in the independent school and nonprofit space and most importantly for this interview, as a board chair and board member at several nonprofit organizations. From how to approach joining a board for an organization you love to insight as to how to navigate board service to how boards can form strong relationships with CEO and be proactive about their own succession planning - we talked about it all!

Michele is president of Caravan Brand Partners, a firm that helps mission-driven organizations build compelling brands. She believes that each client has a vital asset—a core group of stakeholders intensely passionate about their mission. Her team’s work focuses and amplifies that passion to engage broader groups of supporters and advance strategic goals. Their clients span a range of mission areas, including healthcare, public health, education, arts and culture, and human services. Prior to launching Caravan, Michele led teams in a wide variety of agency settings, and in management consulting. She has also served as Interim Chief Marketing Officer for schools and other nonprofit organizations. The author of “Building Your Brand: A Practical Guide for Nonprofit Organizations,” Michele graduated with honors from Harvard and received her MBA from Boston University. Learn more:

Caravan Brand Partners or LinkedIn

Julie Faulstich
Michele, thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview. I really respect your board service, and I know that you have been a leader in organizations during critical times when strong governance was essential. That is not an easy role to fill, especially in smaller nonprofit organizations where there often isn't a clear playbook. It's a big load to carry, and I think you've done it exceptionally well.

Michele Levy
Thank you, Julie. It's always inspiring to talk with you, and this is a subject I care deeply about. I have mixed emotions about not being involved in board work anymore because I truly loved it. This might sound cliché, but I felt like I was really making a difference. For me, board service was a way to use the skills I’d developed professionally and personally for good. It’s a unique opportunity to apply what you’ve learned in a way that benefits the community.

One piece of advice I always share — if you’re going to join a board, do it for something you’re deeply passionate about. It’s hard to remain committed to board meetings, yearly gifts, and other responsibilities if you don’t care about the mission. At the same time, you have to balance that passion and not become blind to reality. It’s about contributing effectively without overstepping.

I think people overlook the teaching and learning aspect of serving on a board — you get to share your wisdom, and you learn from everyone in return. I chaired one board during a particularly challenging time and worked closely with the corporate exec who served as treasurer. I learned so much from him about finance and how to present financial information! He learned a lot from me about how to apply his extraordinary experience from the corporate world to the nonprofit world where resources were scarce, and he was working with people who didn’t report to him.

If you go into board service thinking you know it all, you’re going to miss out on learning opportunities. Even if you know an organization very well, there are going to be surprises. I remember one particular surprise for me as board chair. Early in my tenure with one organization, the CEO pulled me aside after a meeting and pointed out (kindly!) that since I speak with such authority, it was shutting down conversation. That comment made me realize I wasn’t leaving enough space for folks. I run very efficient meetings and am respectful of folks’ time. If you’re a board member who is new to board service or to the organization, or even someone who takes a while to process info and speak up, it could feel intimidating to have the board chair racing through the agenda.

When you consider joining a board, it’s really important to not just think about what you’re going to bring to the organization but what you’re going to get out of it in terms of learning and growth.

JF
I never thought of it that way. I love that point and totally agree! So let’s stay on that topic of new board members. If you have someone who is coming from a different relationship with an organization and is stepping into a trustee role, how would you advise them to approach their new role in the community?.

ML
You need to become very adept at changing hats. Let’s say you’re a parent joining the board of your child’s school. Your parent hat has to be stored in a locked safe when you’re in the trustee seat. When you’re someone who knows and values the organization from a particular perspective, it’s easy to keep stepping into an operational role, and it’s often too easy for the organization to invite you in. That was hard for me as a consultant because I advise nonprofit organizations for a living — I had to figure out where my line was, where I should say no even if I was asked.

That being said, it’s important to consider how you can judiciously tap into all you’ve learned from the organization to strengthen your contributions as a board member. In other words, even if your parent hat is stored in an underground chamber, you do have the advantage of understanding the impact of the organization. Often, trustees can get so caught up in the problems facing the organization that they lose sight of the positive impact it has. At that point, it becomes very difficult for them to see how they can help advance that impact and engage others as volunteers and donors.

Sometimes new trustees come to the table with what they want to fix about the organization. I would flip this around and ask them, How has the organization benefitted you, your family, your community, etc. How do you want to help that impact happen in a broader way? What is the work you can do to support the staff in making that happen?

These organizations are complex and often a new board member has experienced one slice of it. As a board, you need to be looking at the organization as a whole, at the complete experience. That’s why it’s also important to look holistically at board composition. You want a variety of different perspectives on the organization, its challenges, and its potential.

As a sidebar, I would not invite a person on the board who seems to have their own agenda to fix something. It rarely ends well.

JF
It’s hard with schools because the two constituencies who are the most invested are parents and alumni. Parents have a conflict in managing the parent hat and alums are coming into an organization that may be quite different than it was when they attended.

ML
I’ve done a lot of work with organizations that have been around for a very long time. I talk all the time about how you have to have one foot respectfully in your past and one boldly in your future. I would posit that any organization you join now is not the same organization it was five years ago. And you have to respect that. You have to be focused on how to amplify its impact in a 2025 context and beyond.

JF
So what about the role of the board chair? There is definitely a major problem in schools in finding trustees willing to be board chairs. How did you step into that role, and what can make it more appealing to others?

ML
First off, it’s important to distinguish between what I call the large “corporate” nonprofits and small to midsize nonprofits. Board chair and board member roles are very different across those two broad categories. The larger boards tend to be advisory and fundraising boards. Generally, they’re not getting a call at 4pm on a Friday with a crisis. Universities, major museums, hospitals, the Red Cross, those kinds of nonprofits. If you’re talking about the smaller folks, the easy answer is I became a board chair partly because no one else wanted to do it. It does happen a lot! I first became a board chair ten years ago and I think it’s been one crisis after another since then in the nonprofit world.

I think the best solution is to grow your own leaders — just as you would in the corporate world.

Succession planning is critical — you need a nominating or governance committee that is thinking five years out. We used a spreadsheet to track term limits, roles, and potential candidates for leadership positions. I strongly support term limits. Overall, it’s good for the organization. I think it’s also helpful for folks to see that this is not a forever job. It’s easier to commit to a challenging role when you know it’s temporary.

Maybe the most important realization I had as board chair was that my job wasn’t to come in and fix all the problems myself — you have a board for a reason and you have an exec committee for a reason.

Some boards use executive committees well to support the board chair. The VP role can be weird. If you’re not using it to prep the board chair’s successor, it might be a waste of an opportunity. On the other hand, sometimes the VP sees the chair job up close and says, “no thanks.” I also think it’s important to have open conversations about how a board chair can do the job differently than the board chair before them. When I was board chair, my VP kept saying “I cannot commit to this the way you did.” But they didn’t have to. After all, I’m sure I wasn’t doing it all perfectly.

I think “governance” can be overwhelming. In these small to midsize organizations there is a connection between operations and governance and if the board is thinking about how to amplify impact in the future, they have to understand today. But understanding the organization can seem endless!

As volunteers, you don’t have time to be deeply engaged in everything. But I think there are practical tools you can use. One is the strategic plan. The strategic plan should very clearly outline what is board work, what is staff work, and where the board and staff work together. If you don’t have that, you don’t have a road map.

The second is using your leveraged model. The head and the board chair need to funnel work down to the right committee chair and staff member, the finance chair with the CFO, the development chair with the CDO and so on.

And a third is that a good, solid board orientation process is crucial, as are regular updates — at board meetings, and between them.

JF
What about the relationship between the board chair and the CEO? Any insights?

ML
That relationship is pivotal. And I think a weird dynamic can develop where the CEO and the board chair are very close and they know all the confidential information and where the bodies are buried. While there’s no question that the CEO works for the entire board, it’s tough for the entire board to have that depth of relationship. It’s complicated. The board chair and CEO need to be open about that and be actively thinking about how to engage the entire board.

It’s part of the board chair’s job to partner with the CEO and help the CEO partner with the entire board. I think when the CEO and board chair have a relationship that feels very exclusive and where it seems their main priority is having each other’s backs,, it breeds distrust with the rest of the board. And trust is the name of the game. Don’t get me wrong - a board chair should have a CEO’s back but the board has to also have the sense there’s professionalism and accountability there as well.

As a board chair, what would you like a CEO to know?

I would want a CEO to think about managing up to a board chair just like they would manage up to any boss. Structured communication is key. I say structured because I don’t have time to be responding to one-off emails and calls (if there’s a crisis, of course I will drop everything). I found it really helpful to meet weekly with the CEO. We kept a laundry list of things to talk about, and I would send a weekly update to the rest of the board after those calls. That way, everyone was in the loop, and we could minimize surprises. Board members loved it.

Another point I’d like to make to a CEO: I think it’s highly unproductive for CEOs to frame unpopular decisions as “the board made me do it.” I would hope a CEO would respect the time, passion, expertise, and energy of the board chair (and the entire board) and not just pass the buck.

I think we’ve all seen that happen and I agree. I also don’t think CEOs realize that when they do that, they’re undermining their own authority. It’s not a move that conveys a sense of strength as a leader. And I have to add — I absolutely love the idea of sending the board a quick update after the weekly board chair/HOS meeting and AI tools could make that easier than ever. (Note: Ideas for that weekly update might be a Top Five Tuesday in the future… hmmmm.)

There was an article from NAIS recently that was “What Heads Want Board Chairs to Know” and one of the points was that heads wanted board members to stop giving her advice. What are your thoughts about that?

There are two things your board should be giving you - money and advice! You should want sound, informed advice. It doesn’t mean you always have to take it. To me, that goes back to the communication and respect issues. I’m in marketing — believe me, I have sat through any number of board meetings where trustees share very strong opinions on things like doing billboard advertising. And sometimes you say thank you. And sometimes you say, well, let’s talk about the problem we’re trying to solve for and is a billboard the best solution. Again, remember that board members sometimes want to try to fix problems for the staff and they’re going to bring their passion and their expertise. However, if they think they know better than the staff, then they are probably not being great board members.

Sometimes the problems are juicy and interesting! I sat through so many board meetings at Walnut Hill where trustees would get so in the weeds getting creative with the programming for the annual gala, mostly with ideas that were not going to work for one reason or another. And that’s also where trust comes in and maybe off line there could be some gentle resetting of expectations, so to speak, whether that comes from the CEO or the board chair.

I think sometimes the staff needs to let their skin get a little bit thicker. We can be humane and process oriented and all those things but if we had a little more tolerance for moments of discomfort, it might go a long way. It’s easy to demonize a board member who’s perceived as a pain in the neck so that all they have to do is open their mouth and you’re internally rolling your eyes. That same treasurer I mentioned earlier in our conversation was constantly reminding me that you want a little questioning and differences of opinion. Some great stuff can come out of those conversations!

On the other hand, it's important for the chair and board leadership to be clear with board members that board meeting presentations are not performance evaluations for the staff.

I believe that the CEO and staff having the imprimatur of the board is incredibly important for them to most effectively do their jobs running the organization but I think to genuinely have that imprimatur, there needs to be a solid foundation of trust and open communication.

And to come around to the beginning of our conversation, someone coming on to the board with an agenda is probably not going to work out well. As it gets harder and harder to find people who will serve on boards, it’s still important to vet people thoroughly and intentionally and try them out on committees to see if they will be good partners. Make no promises until you understand if a person is the right fit.

JF
If you had to give one piece of advice to the nonprofit sector about governance in 2025, what would it be?

ML
Stop operating like it’s 2000. The way organizations train and deploy people has changed dramatically in the past 25 years and I don’t think board processes have kept pace. I’m not even sure I’m confident what effective governance looks like in a 2025 context. What I am sure of is that governance needs to evolve to meet the many challenges confronting the leaders of these organizations.

Schools and nonprofits are stressed and being asked to do more than ever. How do you think strategically about evolving an organization to be something it’s never had to be before, in a context that keeps changing? Governance is an area that requires creativity and innovation right now, so I look forward to further conversations - I think we can both agree strong governance is more important than ever!

Thank you, Michele - a lot of people are going to appreciate your words of wisdom!

As always, it’s my pleasure!

Thanks, readers! See you for Top Five Tuesday with five tips on student retention.

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Upcoming Speaking Events

Powerful Partnership: Skills and Tools for Head/Board Collaboration - NAIS Thrive 2025, Nashville, TN

with Moira Kelly, President, Explo

Will you be in Nashville at NAIS Thrive in February 2025? I’d love to see you! My presenting partner Moira Kelly and I were given a prime spot at 11AM on Friday, Feb 28th to present on the head/board partnership. I’m arriving around noon on the 27th and will be there all day on the 28th. If you’d like to have coffee and chat, just reach out.